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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffMatthew Vernon Date: Dec 1, 2005 5:02am
Forum: etree Subject: Classification Of Grateful Dead Recordings

These are the guidelines that the Live Music Archive will apply to the Grateful Dead recordings available on the Live Music Archive to classify them as "audience" or "soundboard".

An audience recording is an audio recording made by someone from a location in the audience that used both microphones and tape decks that were not property of the Grateful Dead, i.e. the taper purchased a ticket for a show and brought their own microphones and tape deck to record the show.

Note that matrix, pre-fm, fm, or recordings from soundboard patches, irrespective of origin are classified as soundboard recordings and will be available only in streaming format from this web site.

Matt Vernon

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Poster: A Dude Date: Dec 1, 2005 6:33am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Classification Of Grateful Dead Recordings

That all makes sense except for one - FM.

FM recordings are made over the airwaves by fans on their own tape decks, in an entirely legal fashion, on airwaves that are paid for by taxpayer money.

Such recordings are legal in accordance with the precedent established by the US Supreme Court "Betamax" decision.

Fair Use applies to all over-the-air recordings that are not used for commercial benefit.

In fact, there is a strong case that any FM recording can be hosted by the Archive regardless of what artist is on it.
But I realize that you DO want to respect artist's wishes.

But, logically speaking, Soundboards, Audience recordings, and Radio recordings are three different entities.

As a professional studio engineer who has run studio and live soundboards, I've never allowed any recording of the soundboard feeds, and thus SBD's and Pre-FM's are both pirate unauthorized recordings, and a "Matrix" which uses a SBD is thus the same.

But an FM recording made in the home is entirely different, and I hereby request that you ask for a reconsideration of FM recordings on the basis that they are entirely legal.

PS Right now there is no 1966 available at all, which is sad, yet http://db.etree.org/shninfo_detail.php?shnid=6516 used to be available here, and it is an FM Broadcast.

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Poster: patkelley Date: Feb 23, 2006 10:29am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Classification Of Grateful Dead Recordings

I reralize you're not a lawyer, but after reading the "Betamax" case, I'm not quite sure how it applies to the situation involved in the discussion. Assuming that legal analysis isn't your thing (unless you are a lawyer as well), could you just explain how you think that taping copyright material on Betamax cassettes is like taping non-copyright live performances off the radio?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Feb 23, 2006 8:43pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

It's really not worth reopening this 3 month old, closed topic. Let's just move on to other things, as I have asked repeatedly here. Thanks, mod.

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Poster: nagdot Date: Feb 23, 2006 9:18pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

thats so hypecritical of you ,since you(and other mods) participate in most of these threads. either youre the mod or the participant but you shouldnt be both, the way you put things is rude sometimes. this is after all a forum if you keep askin us to take it somewhere else, someday we might, then where will you be, voluteering at that site more than likely. ty the user

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Poster: patkelley Date: Feb 23, 2006 10:16pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: movin' on

I'm not trying to reopen anything. And since the comment wasn't directed at you, I dont think you should decide whether or not it's "worth" a response, "mod."

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Poster: HighNRGOne Date: Dec 1, 2005 6:41am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Classification Of Grateful Dead Recordings

Excellent and valid point!

Were not there also many recordings made from soundboard radio broadcasts that Healy got into trouble for in the 80's? I recall the FCC cracking down on them because the Dead were acting, in simple terms, as an 'unlicensed radio station'. They clearly intended public (versus production-only) broadcast of the content. The broadcast range and signal strength were purposely elevated to reach beyond the venue space (to the parking lot, presumably).

I would have to say that any 'wireless' broadcasting the Dead did (Healy counts as the Dead, like it or not) that was public enough to get the FCC involved qualifies as public domain and 'fair use' material, particularly for non-profit, non-commercial purposes, as here. If Pre-FM is what I think it is it becomes FM when sent far enough to be captured publicly.

It would be interesting to see the Dead, with a straight face, assert control over the results of their own illegal FM broadcasts in violation of Federal communications laws.

(If anyone knows the real story there, please chime in....I am raising this point from vague memory of this).

Food for thought.

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Poster: A Dude Date: Dec 1, 2005 8:30am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Classification Of Grateful Dead Recordings

While I'm sure HighNRGOne has the best of intentions, nevertheless in 20 years on the Internet, someone always responds to my posts in some way that muddies the water. :) :)

People just don't seem to understand that the Archive is voluntarily restricting downloads to comply with the wishes of artists.

It's not time to try and find "gotchas" and "loopholes".

I'm simply trying to point out that the handful of FM recordings are made by audience members in a way authorized by the artist. When the Grateful Dead would broadcast a show on KSAN, this was a carefully arranged event that benefited both the band (exposure) and the radio station (quality music that enhanced their standing in the community).

Please don't confuse the issue by adding references to "wireless transmissions" or any other happenstance recording of SBDs that really weren't authorized by the band.

I'm ONLY talking about authorized broadcasts on major stations, like KSAN, KQED, etc.

This post was modified by A Dude on 2005-12-01 16:30:29

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Poster: HighNRGOne Date: Dec 1, 2005 8:56am
Forum: etree Subject: Steal Your Archive (Back)

A dude named A Dude wrote :

"People just don't seem to understand that the Archive is voluntarily restricting downloads to comply with the wishes of artists.

It's not time to try and find "gotchas" and "loopholes". "



Dude,

You are a solid thinker and a gentleman. I agree with what you say here 100%. I am sorry to muddy any waters since your points are the most valid yet in the face of the new, new, new policy (3rd iteration, right?). My posts are purposely provocative....life would be dull if we all thought the same way about things.

Much of what I am doing here is teasing out and testing the grounds for impunity in doing what Archive has chosen not to : offer free downloading of publicly donated, public-domain live Grateful Dead recordings irrespective of the purported physical source.

There is a 'market' desire for the recordings (like anything 'free'), members of the public willing to contribute, and, I now firmly believe, scant grounds for any person or entity to stop it, legally or otherwise, except by choosing not to participate.

How hard do you think it would be for a committed few to re-constitute all of this source material and put it back up on a non-profit website? I can tell you about as easy as it will be to slam-dunk any legal challenges from the Dead.

As you said, ulimately all decisions here lie with Archive alone. They are doing their level best and a fine job, in my view, dealing with being the flashpoint of a maelstrom.

The same applies to the good-faith with which they are making these decisions and trying to reconcile their values to the tension between their donors and corporate claimants of donated material.

I may not agree with their decision and choose to strenuously test it, but I do agree with and praise their unwavering adherence to their stated values no matter how conservative in nature.

This post was modified by HighNRGOne on 2005-12-01 16:56:02

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Poster: A Dude Date: Dec 1, 2005 8:52am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Classification Of Grateful Dead Recordings

Note that all of these restrictions only apply to Archive.org .

There has been no change in the overall GD Policy on downloading shows.

So, we are free to download SBD shows from any other site (as long as there is no official release of the show).

And there are a number of such sites and they are seeing more traffic lately. :)

The one difference is that - unlike the Archive - they don't have all shows at all times. Someone says "how about doing 73 RFK" and then that is uploaded (usually by BitTorrent, occasionally on FTP).

To do the same thing as Archive would require the same huge investment in hard drives, servers and bandwidth - you'd need some very heavy duty sponsors. And then you would have GDM knocking at your door, and you would have to go through the same trip. If you chose not to honor the artist's wishes, THEN you need a whole building full of lawyers !

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Poster: Chris U. Date: Dec 1, 2005 9:30am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Classification Of Grateful Dead Recordings

" If you chose not to honor the artist's wishes, THEN you need a whole building full of lawyers !"

Um, what is the Chimperor's phrase?

Oh yeah: "Bring it on."

And just to make it interesting, let's hire John Barlow as a testifying expert.

My question is what exactly is the threat that was communicated to brewster et al.?

If public domain soundboards remain available for download on this site, then ... what happens exactly?

The Dead sues its fans? Some "donors" pull their money and cease supporting the site?

My apologies if these questions have been answered already. As I've indicated, the general discussion among apologists for the "new rules" is that "we should do what Mickey Hart says because he played drums and he's entitled to change his mind and claim copyright to recordings he's never heard."

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbrewster Date: Dec 1, 2005 11:43am
Forum: etree Subject: Streaming Grateful Dead Recordings


I am going to side with the grateful dead on this one. You will notice there is very little stream-only things on this site... why? because we dont think it works well.

But why stream these recordings? because it seems to be a compromise that keeps some access but not enough to cause severe problems.

Please take a bigger view and a nicer one: lets let our whole community: bands, fans, tapers, archivists learn a bit and flex. As they say: bend, dont break.

With respect and patience we will come up with something great. With hard-lines that seem extreme we could lose much more than we can gain.

Your words sting, they hurt. We do this because we love it, we dont get paid much, we live in the public sphere. Other people are in different situations, but everyone wants respect.

We had a hard week last week. We have something going here. Lets give it a rest and celebrate.

I may be asking too much, but please consider apologizing to the band, pull down one of those great '71 auds like I did an hour ago and pop it in your cd player.

It is more fun.

Peace.

-brewster

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Poster: kymusicjunky Date: Dec 1, 2005 11:56am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Streaming Grateful Dead Recordings

Wow! A rare voice of reason (haha). Just a thought for those of you out there that do want to take advantage of the streams currently available on The Archive. There is a program called Total Recorder that will easily capture whatever is streaming into your computer. It will even handle the audio track from video sources. It is easy to use and it makes quality .wav files that you can burn to CD. So, you can still make your own recordings, it's just a little harder than before. Just thought I'd try to help.

Also, www.yousendit.com allows up to 1 GB file transfers directly to someone's email. You should check it out if you're interested in doing person to person trades without using USPS. Contact me at kymusicjunky@yahoo.com if you want some more information or would like to trade some shows. Bye for now, Dave.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 2, 2005 12:12am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Streaming Grateful Dead Recordings

Lest someone start up about being scared of them again here, here's to forestall that:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=49677

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Poster: laptaper Date: Mar 15, 2006 7:27am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Streaming Grateful Dead Recordings

Yousendit sounds like a cool idea. Recording streams is fine for personal use, but for God's sake, DON'T TRADE (OR SEED) THEM. It's only .mp3 quality, ask around at one of the bt sites first or try to set up a trade with someone listed on etree.

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Poster: sonomajon Date: Dec 2, 2005 2:47am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Streaming Grateful Dead Recordings

I just want to thank you all for maintining your equanimity amid the firestorm of the past week..I was fortunate enough to be in school in upstate NY in 1977 and smack dab in front of JG for many of the legendary shows of spring and fall of 77'...so i'd like to think i know a "good thing" when i experience it...This archive is just that!...From democracy now to dancin in the streets and all that lies between... this space is awesome! The fallout has a lot to do with the simple fact that once the genie is out of the bottle...it's hard put it back in. Combine that with this instant gratification age we all have become accustomed to and you have discontent among the loyal masses of Deadheads. Once again the powers that be in the dead organization have stumbled in their attempt to acheive their goals. It's nothing new and in my mind, embodied in the culture of the grateful dead is forgiveness and compassion. The soundboards are out there for the trading...and the audience recordings are right here...perserverence furthurs..also you all at IA were very gracious in your public statement/apology regarding this matter in taking some of the heat of the band/organization...kudos to you!

in great appreciation and respect,

jon

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Poster: smagnolia Date: Dec 1, 2005 11:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Streaming Grateful Dead Recordings

Yes, it was a very hard week and I'm all up for that rest and celebration. So much to be grateful for!
Peace back atcha!

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Dec 20, 2005 12:13am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Classification Of Grateful Dead Recordings

The FCC found out about the illegal low power FM Grateful Dead broadcasts in June of 1990. Ham radio operators called the G-men, after hearing the shows in Eugene Oregon. Trade publications put a "be on the lookout" for the pirate station the next day. Time to pull the plug or go to jail.

They began using a lot of wireless equipment in the 90's. Much of it could be intercepted using those police scanners. A friend of mine had a tape of the boys discussing a second set just before going on stage and playing the music.

Eventually their entire PA went wireless. The main signals (to the right and left channels) were at 520.00 mhz., located on discrete frequencies hidden between the audio and video carrier frequencies of a UHF TV channel.

High end communications receivers will tune in this kind of system. The ham radio operators camped out at the "Dozin At the Knick" run in Albany New York. A detailed technical article about the Grateful dead's equipment appeared in Popular Communications Magazine a few months later...



This post was modified by cousinkix1953 on 2005-12-20 08:13:32

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 1, 2005 7:13am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Classification Of Grateful Dead Recordings

Thanks Matt! Although not everyone might be happy about the FMs, Keep It Simple is a good strategy here.

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Poster: A Dude Date: Dec 1, 2005 7:38am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Classification Of Grateful Dead Recordings

But "AUD's and FM's are allowed" IS simple. :)

And both fit the criterion of "recorded entirely and legally with the equipment of the audience member".

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Poster: Dub Irie Date: Feb 23, 2006 9:48am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Classification Of Grateful Dead Recordings

I have a great VHS HiFi audio recording of the KOME FM live broadcast of the Grateful Dead 11-03-91 known as The Laughter, Love and Music tribute to Bill Graham - an epic daylong event drawing hundreds of thousands of people. It sure is a shame that this historic show cannot be seeded. Surely it was intended for general consumption when the broadcast was made. I think exceptions should be made to allow these broadcasts to be archived. I guess I am biased, but grateful we have what we have.

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Poster: cosmicharlie Date: Feb 23, 2006 11:55pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Classification Of Grateful Dead Recordings

Hey now...PLEASE upload it to a torrent sharing site like http://bt.etree.org or www.dimeadozen.org
I was at the Bill Graham Memorial and would love to have a copy of that. BTW, Nagdot 'n pat, I've never read DH being rude at all. We must be movin on concerning Dead-rehashed subjects or I swear I'll smoke more fatties!!

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Poster: Dub Irie Date: Feb 26, 2006 8:20am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Classification Of Grateful Dead Recordings

Not to get off subject here, but regarding the 11-3-91 FM show, I would like to use the torrent to make that and many others available but I am behind too many firewalls to set it up easily. Contact me at dubATprocDOTus and we can work on a creative solution :-p

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Poster: cosmicharlie Date: Feb 24, 2006 12:21am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Classification Of Grateful Dead Recordings

oooops, wrong login name (I'm beside myself)-hey rasta, where are you???

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Poster: cosmicharlie Date: Feb 24, 2006 12:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Classification Of Grateful Dead Recordings

ahhhh...thats better!
Is not uploading to a torrent site as ez as uploading here?
And i mean legal stuff...

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Poster: nagdot Date: Feb 24, 2006 12:06am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Classification Of Grateful Dead Recordings

sorry man you may have misunderstood, some of the stuff she says is rude. i didnt say she was rude. i try to speak to ppl how i want to be spoken too.some ppl may not frequent this site as much as others so i can see the thread being rehashed. anyways, i have a stellar dvd upgrade of the graham benefit grateful dead show but i have no dvd burner or i would share